IETF Logo Mail Archive

[TLS] Re: forwarding draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 use case

John Mattsson <john.mattsson@ericsson.com> Wed, 18 February 2026 09:57 UTC

Return-Path: <john.mattsson@ericsson.com>
X-Original-To: tls@mail2.ietf.org
Delivered-To: tls@mail2.ietf.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95183B933A94 for <tls@mail2.ietf.org>; Wed, 18 Feb 2026 01:57:54 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.523
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URG_BIZ=0.573] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com
Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o4ZIvjXvTkMe for <tls@mail2.ietf.org>; Wed, 18 Feb 2026 01:57:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from MRWPR03CU001.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-francesouthazon11011067.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.130.67]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B537EB933A8C for <tls@ietf.org>; Wed, 18 Feb 2026 01:57:53 -0800 (PST)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector10001; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=L5DXA6m6DQTpIlY+eisTAFOuZPU+oJjGP1eKz+u1Cr48sig/Nrcl16kzyGApYgme+5KUS44iIRz6Nq39SDWkbx9UBC+UnWQamthNx4dL8EzVjPnZHUBLgQ27C14uZcy2P00oC1nFxPgMLJVHorzNRJbgj83loCZeDGdaF5JNoqmtj/b81RsnqBCTnr/qLQO94/vXrvlcsHZf0zTxdph4KGD2U+Zf91dbFICtF8/MT3z/Q+zxI7/XvG45uZjXx5WOfShOizVwsW4jAJHyCCRmPT4i2c66p7o1yojpbTlnjBeHJ+Ih3ktHlnvoxEPWPtDQVyrLN+ttuSe312oEQd8gwg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector10001; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=dOc2S74k4EOlA+l3th4ZmmeSU2xqFAmCYHGghvgHma8=; b=AYCn73oenMLbWyLyOgV7/91CJmiXpSt5A1tpOZbAAq5BhCB69Sq1PmaHntmoI1RhZQDT+RsD/2Q6jsthTAt+6sYsgudxsXtxptQG14+LwfodQVG2mP7/bDIABWqyfmseUpBeDHio8JBy2ToAz/4KBcNkJGb/4hCLBr5w/vDjyW+3ycgniiW/W+8MVe1plydTo/KqsHXcSYxrKAY3llGk/UWRe+vJK/+5xdi7fabb3CfCwWP+8oLW1FlZiFdTdpCyzj/A/UHGfJquRMV4j5YjmtPd4sbysvqy55cK8qIVlzFtQx1BikozIIGDfcGxqXpSuWyomwh8HosXbiNabYJr5g==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ericsson.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=ericsson.com; dkim=pass header.d=ericsson.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericsson.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=dOc2S74k4EOlA+l3th4ZmmeSU2xqFAmCYHGghvgHma8=; b=ZCIc2xjgdznolEl+1GpGxUfPCHkJFBnPszyEP1CgaenbQU12vss3rPz1sNV5DcbTSEhdcviVioqxJu+9DCY9oo7bUiIP1H/el3S2BXceU9EwJHTSCEc7YEjyhA1tYqB3WuVgbvOmpc01ORJvLrwwxbQKDhfTrPvGuZepN7QnLc0G6PRKVAJ9AfEfjCpb1OdowkGLGk7U7A8CDmhhScpXk/M/ZZTgqzD6zBxuX5Ab7VjPh+/Sz/wThYJ6k2MnQO+iUMGNNnE8g7+RFwHgg3O+ViyKi7MawcTvfT8EAR+I0Hd3aoqOPhjD0Kuq8K2vaRN+/g9miV4cH7vYEyzUfQVX7w==
Received: from AS5PR07MB10596.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:6c5::15) by PR3PR07MB6921.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:102:7b::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.9632.14; Wed, 18 Feb 2026 09:57:45 +0000
Received: from AS5PR07MB10596.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c408:8de0:2e1c:17cc]) by AS5PR07MB10596.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c408:8de0:2e1c:17cc%4]) with mapi id 15.20.9611.013; Wed, 18 Feb 2026 09:57:45 +0000
From: John Mattsson <john.mattsson@ericsson.com>
To: Peter Gutmann <pgut001=40cs.auckland.ac.nz@dmarc.ietf.org>, "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [TLS] Re: forwarding draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 use case
Thread-Index: AQHcoDIDkYtbgHnbVE2HxcYY+qaGELWIHBgAgAAV4ng=
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2026 09:57:45 +0000
Message-ID: <AS5PR07MB1059657CC753F94A36646E828896AA@AS5PR07MB10596.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
References: <350ec383-ae75-cadf-ab47-41811d5d9cec@nohats.ca> <aZSjqJmagFIPRXWB@chardros.imrryr.org> <MEAPR01MB3654E7888AF3473355C1D2CDEE6AA@MEAPR01MB3654.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
In-Reply-To: <MEAPR01MB3654E7888AF3473355C1D2CDEE6AA@MEAPR01MB3654.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-GB
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-ms-reactions: allow
authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com;
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AS5PR07MB10596:EE_|PR3PR07MB6921:EE_
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4e86b311-6df6-4d72-3469-08de6ed42a75
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;ARA:13230040|366016|4022899009|376014|1800799024|8096899003|7053199007|38070700021|13003099007;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255;CTRY:;LANG:en;SCL:1;SRV:;IPV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;H:AS5PR07MB10596.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com;PTR:;CAT:NONE;SFS:(13230040)(366016)(4022899009)(376014)(1800799024)(8096899003)(7053199007)(38070700021)(13003099007);DIR:OUT;SFP:1101;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: 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
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AS5PR07MB1059657CC753F94A36646E828896AAAS5PR07MB10596eu_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AS5PR07MB10596.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4e86b311-6df6-4d72-3469-08de6ed42a75
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Feb 2026 09:57:45.7520 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: hRWn0gvxNzdc0VlIevY+dBbHN/Ah/x7sIMZsniiEVsQvYJSNgGTIUQsL1+npL/tuOW/b++QMjmhXM8KSLNFUWlPzT1GiqZ95dit6fMQFaEU=
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PR3PR07MB6921
Message-ID-Hash: C2IZIT4DKPV5SVI2KCCEZNRQROW3NQMW
X-Message-ID-Hash: C2IZIT4DKPV5SVI2KCCEZNRQROW3NQMW
X-MailFrom: john.mattsson@ericsson.com
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tls.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [TLS] Re: forwarding draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 use case
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/h2JLAcjkzX4bClGW6M5ESLauSZo>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tls>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:tls-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:tls-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:tls-leave@ietf.org>

>UDP for reporting market data because you can't have any latency and TCP for order placement
That is my understanding as well. A recent summary from a company providing technology to the financial sector confirms this.
https://www.pico.net/kb/what-are-the-relative-merits-of-tcp-and-udp-in-high-frequency-trading/

>Since HFT is sort of front-running the market but technically it's not so it’s not illegal
Not anymore. However, in 1837 the French government criminalized the private use of telegraphic machines, partly to prevent unfair advantages in stock markets. This law followed the 1834 optical telegraph hack, often cited as the first cybercrime, which involved an early form of "high‑frequency” trading.
https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:2035158/FULLTEXT01.pdf

Cheer,
John

From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001=40cs.auckland.ac.nz@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Wednesday, 18 February 2026 at 09:12
To: tls@ietf.org <tls@ietf.org>
Subject: [TLS] Re: forwarding draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 use case

Viktor Dukhovni <ietf-dane@dukhovni.org> writes:

>This does not look to me like a compelling rationale.  A high-frequency
>trading system that does not route trades over a connection that was
>established well before market open, and expects to beat the competition by
>minimising connection establishment latency, is perhaps doing it wrong. For
>already established TLS connections latency does not depend on which key
>agreement group was used in the initial handshake.

The following is some years out of date so things may have changed since then
but HFT uses (used) UDP for reporting market data because you can't have any
latency and TCP for order placement because you need reliability, but even
that's modded TCP with anything that would introduce delays or stalls removed.
The interesting stuff isn't the software but the custom hardware used to
minimise any kind of delay, at the time eyewateringly expensive FPGAs (Virtex
UltraScales) but now presumably ASICs.

>One might also point out that the payload of high-frequency trades is not
>likely to be a long-term secret.

Since HFT is sort of front-running the market but technically it's not so it's
not illegal, the secret may only be valuable for a few hundreds of
milliseconds and even if you discover it you can't react fast enough to act on
it yourself.  As you mention above, the logical thing to do would be to set up
the TLS connection before market open and not hope that your TLS handshake
completes in time to get your urgent buy order through.

Peter.
_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list -- tls@ietf.org
To unsubscribe send an email to tls-leave@ietf.org

v2.40.1 | Report a Bug | By Email | System Status